I smell of dust, old books and bluebells. US/UK spellings - yup, that hoary old chestnut again... : comments.
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Re: Warning - Abadon Logic All Ye Who Enter Here...
Excellent point!
Re: Warning - not meaning to stir up yet another cauldron of hot potatoes but...
No, but he'd have used some ancient version of 'man' and unless we write the story in 2nd century BC Latin, it's not going to be authentic anyway. If we had some way to listen to historical characters speaking, they'd sound very strange to us - ::gives Shake and Geoff Chaucer frightened looks; edges books away with toe:: but to each other - they would've sounded as normal and natural as we sound to one another - and since every character in the story is equally ancient, the best thing to do imo, is have them all speaking normal, modern English otherwise we're in danger of the thing sounding like Tony Curtis in a Biblical epic.
Just IMO, I *hasten* to add!
Re: Warning - not meaning to stir up yet another cauldron of hot potatoes but...
I totally agree with Sally that it can be very pedantic and off-putting (if that's even a word ::frowns::) to be too historically correct in dialog and narrative in fanfic that's far removed from our time and our language. I don't think there can be a hard-and-fast, one-size-fits-all rule, of course -- I guess it depends on the time and the place of the fic, the feeling to be conveyed, how the author approaches all the various aspects of all of it. In something like Mab's Regency fics, a more historical approach to language works wonderfully because it's so close to us that we can still interpret it in a natural way. But sheesh -- much as I love Willie, I don't want to read fanfic written in Shakespearan English (and Chaucerian -- oh, citizen!). Same thing with Alpha and Omega -- the setting is so far from Here and Now and English that I don't have a language framework to fit it in and I'm perfectly happy to have it in conversational contemporary-to-me English.
::nibbles on potatoes; adds fish -- chowder! yum!::
Re: Warning - not meaning to stir up yet another cauldron of hot potatoes but...
but also, what tends to irk me about historical AUs is that a lot of them ring false on the set-up. a slave is not going to be completely informal with a non-slave, especially in ancient greece or rome. it doesn't matter what the the slave's *function* is, the fact that the slave is literally endangering his life when he does something like that is what will drive the interaction between the two. also, various societies had very strict rules about not consorting with outsiders. the jews were one of these societies.
then there's the fact that there are several influences on modern-day blair that wouldn't have occured in the ancient world. partially because people just didn't think that way, partially because society as a whole was much more stratified and social rules much more rigidly enforced, and partially because of technilogical advances. modern-blair's dislike of guns won't necessarily translate into a dislike of bows, swords, pikes, halberds, etc. in fact, his intellect and understanding of the world around him would lead him to being a designer of catapults, ships, arquebesqes, things of that nature - if he had the good luck to be apprenticed to an artificer. which is problematic in and of itself.
and then there's names. naomi's biblical, so is james.... william is tutonic german, though, and wouldn't show up on a native roman or greek - and it would be some variation of wilhelm, besides. i'm not sure how old 'blair' is... but i'm pretty sure it's not biblical, or local. it actually looks like a gaelic-descent name to me (although i could be wrong), which would mean that a jewish boy would never be named that at the time.
erm, sorry... you hit my internal history nut there...
-bs
Re: Warning - not meaning to stir up yet another cauldron of hot potatoes but...
Afraid I don't agree with you there. Do we always look for era-appropriate slang then, which to my mind has that 'Tony Curtis' sound? We're not actually writing the piece in 2ndCBC Latin and Greek so all of the language is an interpretation from what the characters would have been saying. When Blair says 'man' and whatever - he's really speaking Latin and Greek so I'm interpreting his slang (as I was taught to do by some excellent classics scholars) to make the ancient characters speak to us as they spoke to their contemporaries and not sound dry and ancient and impenetrable.
I wouldn't include stories within literary English history (although writing them in historically correct English still makes them sound unusual and they *wouldn't* have to each other - it depends on whether the characters are speaking to us, as they do in Mab's stories for example, in which case they are perfectly correct to speak the syntax of their time - or each other, in which case they should be interpreted for modern idiom.) - Characters speaking to each other in cod ancient tongues sounds 'historicalese' to my ears and tendeth to make me giggle. I'm sorry if the way I wrote A&O didn't work for you but I wouldn't have written it any other way.
"if not, there are modes of speaking that will convey level of formality just fine without resorting to modern slang."
I didn't resort to modern slang, I chose it quite deliberately.
"but also, what tends to irk me about historical AUs is that a lot of them ring false on the set-up. "
I hope you're talking in general - no story could have been more rigorously researched than A&O. My collaborator, Ali, is a professional Romanist at a very good university; I studied the classics extensively. There was practically nothing in the story that was in any way historically inaccurate - including the level of informality and relationship between the characters (Blair wasn't a slave but a scholar but there are plenty of contemporary accounts that demonstrate very close, informal relations between master and slave).
"various societies had very strict rules about not consorting with outsiders. the jews were one of these societies."
Not unobservant Jews and they were many. Neither Blair nor Naomi were in any way religious Jews - Blair actually states this in the story. Jews were everywhere in the ancient world - anyone who towed the line was acceptable to Rome.
As for the names, they're always a problem. We changed Jim, William and Simon but never could hit on a suitable replacement for Blair (which is Scots; a pretty common surname around these parts, actually). Blair says it's a nickname (states its meaning) and actually lists all the names by which he's been known in all the languages they've encountered as they travelled - OK it's a fudge, but a pretty minor one I think.
I get the strong impression you didn't like A&O, which is shame but no one's going to like everything I write. - The story was written *exactly* as I meant it to be written. It was as historically/societally accurately as we could manage in the context of a fanfic; twisting an already fictional story about fictional creatures, the Sentinels. It was written in language that was deliberately modern for the reasons I've already mentioned - and, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.
Re: Warning - not meaning to stir up yet another cauldron of hot potatoes but...
and i never did get around to reading alpha and omega - i'll have to go look it. thing is, so many historical AUs tend to be soldier/slave fic, and i get irritated enough at the wide-spread presence of my pet peeves that i'm almost in a knee-jerk rejection mode of roman-era AUs these days.
thanks for telling me more about it - makes me *more* interested in reading it. i'll be sure to check it out.
wrt to liking/ not liking a particular story - i don't believe every story needs to cater to me. i also know my particular likes are not a fandom wide thing. i'm happy to be picky, but you don't need to feel like you've failed in some way if i really don't like something. i've never been one to equate 'it's not my thing' to 'yuck, bad writing! (or bad research)'
-bs